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02/02/2011 4:24:00 AM
Thanks for the kind words, Artie.
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Artie 02/01/2011 10:30:00 PM
Shadowlane who is paying you to write this fabrication? Hundred of animals are put to death daily due to lack of homes, especially in the summer. Or the animals are abandoned on highways. Check out the bodies on Highway 370, especially near the Third Street ramp.
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Artie 02/01/2011 5:28:00 PM
I didn't mean to click that I "liked" this horrid entry. Pable, who employs you to write "opinions"?
People are having trouble caring for themselves, let alone their pets, thanks to US financial institutions endlessly ruining the economy. We're seeing more abandoned pets everywhere, including pathetic bodies along the highway, thanks to the raging pace of home foreclosures and the rising cost of everything and the tax incentives to ship jobs and companies out of the country. Pablo, there's no excuse for cruelty.
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Artie 02/01/2011 5:08:00 PM
Shelley,
I deeply appreciate your patience, clear responses, facts and corrections.
It's apparent the RFT has been taken over and journalism has been given the boot. Instead, we get media con - articles that aim to expose something, but instead murkify the issue just enough to keep people from understanding what all the fuss is about. Even their movie reviews are suspect, so I never read them any more.
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Smokin1 01/12/2011 10:07:00 PM
6 million dogs put to sleep in humane societies each year.
6 million puppies born in puppymills each year.
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Bc 01/12/2011 12:22:00 AM
pathetic, just enforce the existing laws and quit wasting tax payers money
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01/11/2011 5:25:00 PM
WhatwouldJesusdo: Change your name. You are being disgusting and disgracing the name of Jesus. You know nothing about this issue, have no dog in this fight, and just need to shut up.
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01/11/2011 3:49:00 PM
I certainly don't want a humane society mutt with no known history for health or temperament issues. I have no desire to show. Are you calling all the rest of the dog kennels puppy mills? I would rather get my dog from a legal, licensed breeder anyday.
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01/11/2011 3:40:00 PM
You still believe in the pet over-population myth? Then why do some shelters import dogs and pups from other countries just to fill the demand for shelter pets? Of course, they are bringing in health problems not seen in this country with them. Shelters transfer dogs to other shelters weekly to fill the demand elsewhere. If a shelter near you is crowded, they can send to one needing dogs. Shelters and especially rescues are BIG business these days. In fact, HSUS has stated that they have rescues standing by just waiting for the dogs that are over the limit of 50.
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01/11/2011 3:25:00 PM
Not so fast, Shelley. Your quote: Focusing on irrelevances has long been the hallmark from those against Proposition B. And focusing on the fact that there is no "legal definition" of puppy mill is about as irrelevant as it gets.
Then why does Prop B sneak CRIMINAL CODE into the bill using the undefined word? You know, the crime of 'puppymill cruelty' for any infraction? You forgot about that one.
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01/11/2011 3:12:00 PM
Dogs will reflect the neuroses of their owners. Keeping terminally ill and suffering dogs alive at all costs is cruel and not in the best interest of the dog. When quality of life is compromised, you need to listen to the vet and let them go. No pat on the back here for making them suffer by prolonging their death.
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01/11/2011 6:03:00 AM
I'm just happy that some dogs went to good homes, like the beautiful Cowboy--highlighted in the article. I wish that the other dogs had not been allowed to be purchased by other breeders--those dogs have been through enough--they deserve to be babied the rest of their lives.
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Blakely Wintersfield 01/11/2011 1:47:00 AM
Completely agreed. This article is very biased. Maybe I'm not one to talked, seeing as when I write about things I feel very strongly about, I tend to favor my side, but still - if you want to persuade one to agree, one have to be completely unbiased, at least if the reader is smart. I've been fairly neutral on this subject, seeing as I had no reason to approve or disapprove the matter. But after reading the article, then your (Shelley) counter argument, I'm for Prop B, because your side seems more persuading, with hard-on facts, and not a bunch of "feel bad for _____".
Maybe it's no big victory, me being only one person, one who can't even vote yet, but how many others have been convinced by this article, or by your counter argument? Who knows, but let me say I hope those who read this look over all the comments. Then they'll get the whole story. Kudos to you, Shelley. To be persuasive, think both sides, or you'll end up easily being overturned by the other side. And I've learned this from not only countless English lessons (Honors English, if I may add), but also from personal experience. I'm only stating facts here.
Sorry, but I'm for Proposition B now. It seems like a way to keep things more humane for the animals being used to breed.
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teacup tornado 01/09/2011 9:35:00 PM
I think with everything being said about puppymills,we don't need dingbats advertising for Michael Vick in the South county area as being their favorite football player.The advertisement in their condo window is probably more of a publicity stunt for the one who put up the poster in the window.I St.Louis we cheer for the Rams ,not individuals prosecuted for dogfighting.This gives our national symbol a bad name,too.
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teacup tornado 01/09/2011 5:31:00 PM
Your comment along with Pablo is the big problem here.The people who cause this problem are not more important than the animals.Any of you can go to work at McDonalds just like anybody else.You are probably the same lazy creeps that would put your own daughter on a street corner.These animals do not deserve to be used whatever sick selfish needs of a sociopath.I'm also tired of hearing sex perverts complaining if a dog gets nuetered and never has a sex life.If you can't afford the high cost of groceries ,try planting a garden and tending to that instead of abusing animals.There are Zoos in this country that lock up animals against their will and in some cases for their own good and a puppymill does not qualify as a Zoo.It qualifies as a sewer.
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Stormy 01/09/2011 4:06:00 AM
Pablo, your post makes more sense than anything else being said here. You are totally correct in your assessment of the whole situation. Thank you!
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Creativeinfo2001 01/09/2011 1:46:00 AM
given the pet over population in this country, if a few breeders went out of business, that would NOT be a bad thing. then again, following your logic, we *need* the breeders so we continue to have a pet overpopulation problem so that we keep people employed at the shelters too...after all, we need someone to do all the euthanizations!
yeah, pablo, i see what you mean :-)
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pablo 01/09/2011 1:15:00 AM
I love my dogs and other pets. That being said, you 'Puppy Mill Prevention Cruelty' wackos can't complain about unemployment or the economy. You just put more companies out of business and more people out of work.Get your priorities straight. Human being are more important than animals.
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Creativeinfo2001 01/08/2011 8:27:00 PM
The writer only highlights one of the "better" mills... meaning, there are MUCH worse mills that keep dogs in deplorable conditions. Most of the dogs from the Schindler acution that went to rescue groups were pretty well socialized and ready to go to homes. But, there were also those who didn't make it, as they were too sick. The writer does not mention those.
The photo of Floyd and Cowboy is stunning. But, again, if I were to look at that photo without knowing the awful truth about the mills, I would only think that Cowboy is a good looking dog. It makes it seem like mills really aren't that bad, if Cowboy was a previous breeder. And, of course, nothing is further from the truth.
IMO, while it appears that the writer tried to remain unbiased and present both sides, I believe she showed way too much to support for the mills and the opposition and did not adequately depict the deplorable conditions those pour souls are kept in.
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bonnie 01/08/2011 7:54:00 PM
Actually, the laws on the books (pre-Prop B, don't forget, Prop B WAS enacted by Missouri voters on November 2nd 2010, and will go into effect November 2nd 2011) attempt to address the puppy mills problem, but fail. That is why this situation has festered in our state for so long and why we need Prop B.
For example, ACFA attempts to ensure that the dogs get veterinary care, but it only requires that a vertinarian visit each facility once a year. Prop B requires that each dog be examined by a veterinarian once a year and that injuries and illnesses be treated propmply.
ACFA attempts to prevent the dogs from being exposed to extreme temperatures, but it fails for couple of reasons. For one, it states that they cannot be exposed to extreme temperatures for more than four hours, but this is impossible for an inspector to determine, as their inspections do not last that long. Therefore, it cannot be enforced.
Prop B will require that the dogs' indoor enclosure have an ambient temperature between 45-85 degrees F, which is specific enough to be enforced.
ACFA also attempts to keep the dogs from being exposed to extremes in temperature by requiring bedding should the temp fall below 50 degrees. That might help when the temperature is say 40 degrees, but is not enough when the temperature falls into the 20s, teens or below zero as it does every winter in Missouri.
ACFA attempts to ensure that dogs in breeding facilities have access to regular exercise, but there is a loophole that states if the dog has more than an extra square foot of space, then it is not necessary.
Prop B will require that each dog have access to a reasonably sized exercise enclosure.
Also, ACFA does not address:
*Adequate rest between breeding cycles, which is essential to the health of the mother and the puppies. The AKC recommends it.
Proposition B requires adequate rest between breeding cycles.
*Stacked wire-floored cages, which often lead to painful foot problems and allow urine and feces from upper cages to cascade onto the dogs below.
Proposition B requires that the dogs have the basic comfort of a solid floor and that cages not be stacked.
*Breeders destroying dogs which are no longer producing themselves with inhumane methods.
Proposition B requires that when necessary euthanasia be performed by a licensed veterinarian using a method deemed acceptable by the American Veterinary Medical Association.
*Real consequences for violations. Currently, there are several substandard large-scale breeding operations with pages upon pages of violations (and often repeat violations) that continue to be licensed and operate business as usual.
Proposition B will create a misdemeanor crime of puppy mill cruelty for any violations.
Prop B strengthens existing law and makes it enforceable. More funding will not help if the law is too weak and vague to be enforced.
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Debi 01/08/2011 7:17:00 PM
There wouldn't be any puppy mills, if people who aren't going to show dogs would only buy dogs from a humane society. They make better pets any way.
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teacup chihuahua 01/08/2011 6:21:00 PM
Puppymills need to go.There is no way humanly or humanely possible for one or two people ,especially elderly people or anyone who works to be able to care for these animals properly.Even if most a re healthy by the time they are sold,it is impossible to care for all of these animals.It was the equivalent of two full-time jobs for me
to care for my sick dog after his brother died from the drug overdose precribed by the vet.We got our "two years" after heart failure but,the new vet was happy to play old-school
and let his kidneys fail.The "specialist" said don't come back if you don't give what he precribed.My dog only tolerated a little more than half and thrived for a year.He got some some dental from one caring capable vet but,needed a little more to keep going longer without antibiotics that he would have never tolerated .He needed the "specialist" again to get through the hard drugs and we would have gladly paid.He was still showing us where the fire was when it was time to eat up until the two days before he got put on hard drugs.The vet only guessed at how much he should have had.One drop was all he tolerated until the allergic reaction or CHF overcame him at home in my arms.If the pets owners are the only ones who have time to do it right,then encourage the one drop over the whole syringe.I would not have traded anything in the world for the last two years of my little heros life and would have gladly bought him more time from anyone who could have done it right.The dog breeders I grew up with never had more than 5-10 dogs at one time.To have hundreds and thousands of dogs without a full staff of expereinced animal lovers is a crime that should be punished to the full extent of the law and more severe laws need to be implemented.These animals have the right to lives with the right conditions.Stop saying that dogs and cats and all other animals give unconditional love.They are just more forgiving and consisitent but,do suffer from PTSD and eating disorders and do get their feelings hurt and it shows.It has taken two years for my sick dog to rehabilitate my rescued dog.Without his 3 1/2 pound life coach his expereince with just humans would not have been enough.He needed the love of another animal like himself ,which I'm sure he never had.This dog rescued from a puppymill never saw another dog play,and whine,and bark in a playful manner.He had never been kissed by another dog on a daily basis and shown how Chihuahuas are supposed be mischievious and get away with being demanding because it's cute.He would have never known how much fun it is to go outside and then run through the house at full speed to get to their breakfast and to gain the courage to look outside the window while eating without being afraid.now he gets to watch the snow fall from inside where it's warm and enjoy seeing it and learn to love the color white even though his favorite color is black.Let's not forget how this little dog communicates his former life as a show dog,no matter how short his career was and then abused as a stud dog.He was loved once ,temporarily,then did harder time than a convicted murderer or child rapist.This is a problem brought on by the human condition when they so desperately thrive in humane conditions
you don't give the dose of heart meds he recommended.My dog could only tolerate a little more than half of the med and thrived for a year
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Jean Houston 01/08/2011 9:44:00 AM
It's not insanity. It's evil greed.
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Jean Houston 01/08/2011 9:41:00 AM
O I agree completely. Hey if they banned pictures from being taken of the dogs then OBVIOUSLY there was proff of animal abuse. Theres no maybe about it. They didn't want proff of their abuse of these animals to get out.
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Dorothyfromoz 01/08/2011 9:34:00 AM
Your fine Shelley. Look there are just some people in this world that lack a strong moral backbone. This certainly tends to cause them into confusion. Some people struggle with morals. Lack strong moral decision making. So they end up saying stup__ crap like I have a "a more balanced view" ha ha . Lord thats funny.
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Jean Houston 01/08/2011 9:24:00 AM
Right "Guest". We all know that you had to throw in the "simplicity" remark as a way to try to discredit Shelly Powers. Anyone could see that. However I have to ask you something. What part of using,exploiting,profiting from the innocent and other defining words that accurately describe the actions and motivations of a "dog breeder" do you not understand?. This is not a trick question. It's not. It's simple (if I may). It's not hard at all. So I have to asked you about your "More balanced view". So are you saying .. it's "kinda" alright to exploit innocent animals?. You feel thats It's "kinda" alright to put these innocent animals in cages they can barely turn around in? It's "kinda" alright to not protect these innocent animals from the act of disgusting human greed? Do you have difficulty understanding the difference between right and wrong? Do you have a "More balanced view" when it comes to the topics of drinking and driving? or perhaps domestic violence? ooo I don't know ripping the fur off of a animal (the fur trade)?. Are these kinda moral calls causing you confusion? Look we all know the opposition to Prop B lies in the pockets of the exploiters and predators of this innocent animals and their supporters. Is this where Right and wrong seems rather cloudy or foggy in you head? Don't make me pull out my crayons!
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Jean Houston 01/08/2011 8:15:00 AM
Shelley Powers I'am right there beside you. It's just another outlet for evil to excerise it's grasp on the innocent. This is all about money Shelley. Greed and money. For Kase to even attempt to show disdain in support (in any way shape or form) for prop B tells us that Ms. Kase doesn't care about whats right. I honestly suspect Ms. Kase here may very well have some personal financial interest or close to someone who does in defeating prop B. Greed is such a evil thing Shelley. Bottom line if we can get rid of the worst of the worst then the remaining can be watched much closer. We need to fight the predators of these innocent animals. They can't protect themselves against such human evil and greed.
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Jean Houston 01/08/2011 7:55:00 AM
whatwouldjesusdo I couldn't agree more. We all know what is right and what is wrong it's just some people don't care. It's so sad that this greed leads to such injustice and suffering of innocent animals. I know right from wrong and I will fight to protect the innocent against the predators. I find the word "predator" extremely accurate when referring to these supporter of animal suffering. I will never understand the urge to hurt,deprive,profit and exploit these innocent animals. That takes true meaness and greed. Dog Breeders aka exploiter of the innocent for personal gain. Also did you catch the Walmart remark in this article? Need I say anything more? Pray for the innocent.
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Jean Houston 01/08/2011 7:32:00 AM
Kase Get real. This crap needs to stop period. Naturally we need to close these money grubbing user out of business. We have no right to treat animals like this. You want a another perspective? Here's one for you. Anyone that is evil enough to use a living animal for profit and gain is a sick individual. There is no such thing as a respectable breeder. These people who do that need to be put in cages period. For anyone in any way or form try to defend someone of such low moral is a oxiymoron in itself. Lets face it anyone involve in the act of running a reproduction of this innocent animals is a person whos only interest is money and greed. NOT a animal. Get real. Animals are killed everyday because of over crowding and yo have the balls to stand up and defend such practices. Please O Please Kase tell me that I'am wrong. I thought now. Shame on you for even trying to defend such cruel sick practices. Shame on you Kase.
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01/08/2011 4:53:00 AM
I believe the Humane Society of Missouri veterinarian does live in Missouri. There were also letters to the editors, and other articles at various newspapers. I remember one by a teacher at Mizzou that was one of the first articles on the proposition.
I also know that Jim Foster and some other folks started a phone "campaign" calling vets who endorsed Proposition B and demanding answers as to why they supported the Proposition. Yes, they called the vets at their offices, which I imagine was really pleasant for everyone involved.
As for breeders, where are the hundreds of videos and photos of all those great commercial breeders in Missouri? The ones that don't need Proposition B?
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guest 01/07/2011 11:51:00 PM
Before you voted for Prop B did you even read the current 26 pages of law on the books or did you just go with the flow?
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Lauramacnear 01/07/2011 11:49:00 PM
So you are of the school that there should be no pets??
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Laurnamacnear 01/07/2011 11:31:00 PM
Shelley,
You want to explain why Prop B had to go to Texas for a vet/breeder and then try to pass her off as a Missouri vet/breeder? Why didn't one of those 150+ vets come forward and put their face in front of a camera???
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teacup tornado 01/07/2011 11:30:00 PM
This issue is like a cancer affecting every area of animals lives.The puppymills are horendous as my black Chihuahua will tell you when you look into his eyes.The verterinarian service is just as deadly as my whilte Chihuahua and chocolate Chihuahua would tell you had they survived the overdose of antibiotics and if the vets did not encourage us to end our pets lives to buy new ones.My little guys held on for as long as any vet has documented that they will but,I had to fight with several to get the correct meds,food, and info..I was constantly criticized for getting my correct info from the internet and no one encouraged us to persevere and never got any help with a difficult 3 1/2 pound dog who needed dental.These animals are caught in a Holocost.You pick up a stray cat,pay for medical attention and try to find them a home for them only to be euthanized the first day they are sent to the Humane Society.We do the work and they get thrown in the trash.This is a vicious circle at it's worst.The road kill is out of control and still no fences are put up along long stretches of highway and busy streets.Sensitivity training is a must for all individuals in this business and classes for all who adopt in order to properly care for their pets so they don't end up in a trash can or tortured through less than qualified medical attention.
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01/07/2011 8:40:00 PM
Not all inspection reports noted number of employees, but it seemed to hover somewhere around a dozen. It wasn't just the Schindlers taking care of these dogs, but it is noted in some records that the inspectors told them to hire more employees to manage the dogs.
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Chelsee1424 01/07/2011 4:46:00 PM
OF COURSE IT'S A TRIUMPH ! IT'S EMBARRASSING LIVING IN SUCH A BACKWARD STATE AS MISSOURI ! WELCOME,WELCOME MISSOURI TO THE 21ST CENTURY,WHERE WE ARE ENLIGHTENED AND INTELLIGENT ENOUGH TO TREAT ANIMALS WITH THE RESPECT THEY DESERVE. REMEMBER,YOU CAN WITNESS HOW FAR A SOCIETY AS EVOLVED BY THE TREATMENT OF THEIR ANIMALS.
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teacup tornado 01/07/2011 6:30:00 AM
puppy mills give a place for homeless veterinarians to go.with all of the tornados there has to be at least one waiting for their check from the Emerald City.follow the yellow brick road and say hi to Toto.with the insurance money coming in they can afford to buy theirself a new name and a math class.
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Horse-pro 01/07/2011 2:42:00 AM
I seem to remember reading (in a different article) that the Shindlers employed 14 or 19 people. The article said that the dogs were all fat and healthy and very social. Does not sound like a puppy mill to me. Sounds like a responsible breeder that when they got old things started slipping.....except the dogs seemed to have good care.
Typical HSUS tactic, anyone breeding dogs commercially ARE a puppy mill.
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horse-pro 01/07/2011 2:32:00 AM
150 MO vets for prop B and the rest of the 4600 liscensed vets againt it. Yep,should have interviewed the rest.
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01/06/2011 8:33:00 PM
Actually, Schizoid34, as I mentioned above, there IS a legal definition of "puppy mill". From Venson v. Zegart, 577 F. Supp. 958, 960 (D. Minn 1984) - "A 'puppy mill' is a dog breeding operation in which the health of the dogs is disregarded in order to maintain a low overhead and maximize profits." MoFed tried to make that same argument in their lawsuit, and it was rejected by a judge in Jefferson County.
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01/06/2011 8:30:00 PM
Actually, Kase, there is a legal definition of a puppy mill. From venson v. Zegart, 577 F. Supp. 958, 960 (D. Minn 1984) - "A 'puppy mill' is a dog breeding operation in which the health of the dogs is disregarded in order to maintain a low overhead and maximize profits." MoFed tried to make that same argument in their lawsuit, and it was rejected by a judge in Jefferson County.
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Mmmmmm 01/06/2011 7:40:00 PM
I didn't take from this article that the author had any sympathies for the dog breeders. In fact, I think the breeders are portrayed in a very bad light- as is the auction company.
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Baxtersmom396 01/06/2011 6:23:00 PM
Puppy mills are horrible! These people need to live in the pathetic manner that thier dogs do. Missouri needs to be educated! Wake up people. It is a sorry human that would do the things that this elderly couple have been doing for decades. 1,000 breeding dogs. Insane!
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Kayspitzner 01/06/2011 9:24:00 AM
Are you kidding? Missouri is known for having puppy mills which have brutal living conditions for the breeding dogs!
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Guest 01/06/2011 7:27:00 AM
Oh my gosh, Sarah- you response above is EXACTLY the SAME response Barbara Schmitz gave in an interview a couple of weeks ago in the Spingfield NewsLeader! Like, word for word. Hmmmmm. Can we say mindless mimics of each other?
BTW, folks, that tipline number that Sarah uses above is NOT the number of any group that has any policing authority at all. It is the number of the HSUS. If anyone in MO needs to report a genuine case of abuse, they need to call Operation Bark Alert, a program administered by the Mo Department of Ag, and who has genuine authority to close down an abusive situation at a kennel. The HSUS has NO authority at all.
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Darling 01/06/2011 6:20:00 AM
Missouri.. I have lived here most of my life and thought we were the best... in the last few years I found out that we are top in child abuse.. meth labs and puppy mills.. we should all be ashamed :(
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whatwouldjesusdo 01/06/2011 5:24:00 AM
Are you in equal support of slavery?
When something doesn't make sense just follow the money trail. What money do the animal lovers make over this? They actually have had to spend money for a cause. The reason this is a hotly debated issue is because there are people who will have to spend more money to stay in business or it might eat into their profit. They are getting paid for exploitation so they have something financial to lose. However, any job that requires to to create suffering for others is not sustainable. If it were solely about ethics or morals the answer would be easy. It's so American to turn the head the other way until it is nearly too late to change. Nothing to interfere with our capitalism. A proud, educated country.
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paybacks 01/06/2011 5:19:00 AM
I hope you get to be in a cramped little room, not able to walk, and to get your own feces all over yourself. It is my nocturnal emission for the evening. So not sexy. No wonder republicans have to pay for sex.
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whatwouldjesusdo 01/06/2011 5:15:00 AM
Perhaps ethical behavior is the strong point, which can't be so quickly bought and sold.
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whatwouldjesusdo 01/06/2011 5:13:00 AM
Baby Steps. We are just inching towards slightly less Satanic.
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whatwouldjesusdo? 01/06/2011 5:11:00 AM
I concur. There are facts. Why not house children the same way?
Why do you believe that a dog is a commodity to be bought and sold anyway?
Why would you want other beings to suffer in poor conditions? Every single bad thing that has happened to our people and planet at this time is caused by doing harm to animals. Don't tell me about the Bible unless you are living it. I hardly think that Jesus would make animals sit in their own feces, buy and sell them, and not give them basic needs. I hardly think he would exploit animals to make a quick buck to buy some fast food.
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snatch 01/06/2011 5:02:00 AM
If you buy a dog, you, yes, you directly actually killed another.
Because you bought a dog another dog was killed.
Breeding in and of itself for a profit cannot ever be an ethical behaviour.
Lives should not be bought and sold. Isn't this what we did with people a few years back and now we think it it is terrible?
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snatch. 01/06/2011 4:59:00 AM
To the "Well Fair" of our country.
Yes, they are very very dangerous, aren't they?
Please just move to Texas.
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vegansnatch, yum. 01/06/2011 4:56:00 AM
Matt Blunt is a poster child for abortion.
Makes me just want to go have them for the hell of it.
Where was the coat hanger when he was just a bun in the oven.
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Gwmullen 01/06/2011 1:29:00 AM
I guess our votes don't mean anything to some people. I say protect the animals and the majority vote counts.
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animal lover 01/06/2011 1:21:00 AM
I could give you a few suggestions to do more, but suicide is frowned upon.
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Adam 01/06/2011 1:19:00 AM
I agree with Shelly Powers on most points here, and in particular her observation about the extreme secrecy with which the large-scale breeders operate. When people are afraid of journalists, you can bet that they've got something to hide, and journalists should get righteously pissed off at being denied access rather than falling for sob stories about how unfair other journalists were in the past. If you're running a large scale operation where the well-being of hundreds of animals depends on the quality of your work, you should be subjected to public scrutiny. That is true for puppy mills and for other operations.
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Gwmullen 01/06/2011 1:18:00 AM
I'm tied of the news media reporting THEIR OPINIONS rather than the facts and using their position as a tool to influence the public toward their way of thinking.They are dangerous to the well fair of our country.
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animal lover 01/06/2011 1:16:00 AM
Too bad you're not as smart as a dog.
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Tialeesuh 01/05/2011 11:33:00 PM
Moron.
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01/05/2011 9:44:00 PM
The law isn't perfect, but it's a hell of a lot better than letting the bad breeders continue to operate without any apparent limits whatsoever, as they have been for many years.
Factory-style production of dogs intended to be pets is a bad idea all around. The dogs are bought by families who expect their pets to be healthy and socilaized, and the very size of these factory operations makes this impossible.
If you want a purebred dog, go to a small local breeder and check them out throughly. Look their operation over as throughly as possible. Get references from past customers.
If you don't want a purebred dog with papers, go to a shelter.
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Thana 01/05/2011 9:16:00 PM
I am proud I voted against this bill, I wish I could have done more.
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Guest 01/05/2011 4:43:00 PM
Do the math....900 dogs..give each dog 1 minute = 900 minutes / 60 minutes in an hour = 15 hours to feed, water, clean cages, collecting puppies to sell, removing puppies from mother so the mother can be bred again, inspect for disease or injury
(time to take dog to trash if disease or injury really bad...like chewed foot off because foot caught in matted coat)...75 y/o.husband, wife and their son doing
all the work....and it's a terrific place...get real.
Thankfully, their tortureous puppy mill is gone.
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01/05/2011 3:50:00 PM
Yes, thank you for demonstrating more "balanced viewpoints".
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01/05/2011 3:48:00 PM
There is no legal definition for most English, yet local, state, and the federal government creates law most days.
Proposition B did not include provisions dependent on the term "puppy mills", it was a part of the title. And the term was challenged in court, and the judge ruled that the term was permissible. So should we then override the courts, in addition to the voters?
What was covered under Proposition B generates no confusion: sufficient space, food, and water; shelter from the elements; access to room for exercising; adequate veterinarian care; limits to the number of dogs, and how often the dogs are bred. I'm fairly sure there are no legal definitions for "sufficient", "food", "water", "shelter", "care", and "50"--do people want to challenge the use of these terms, too?
Focusing on irrelevances has long been the hallmark from those against Proposition B. And focusing on the fact that there is no "legal definition" of puppy mill is about as irrelevant as it gets.
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Schizoid34 01/05/2011 3:35:00 PM
There is no legal definition to the phrase "puppy mill." Why is that? Probably because the phrase means nothing but it intended to stir emotions. You are indeed simple if you generalize like that. How about all dogs are violent killers and should be destroyed, ohh generalizations are fun. All women are mindless baby factories, yes, this is fun.
Are puppy mills that have only 10 breeding dogs still bad, you generalizing troglodyte?
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Schizoid34 01/05/2011 3:30:00 PM
That's right, they're dogs. They're not even as smart as pigs, which are delicious.
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01/05/2011 1:15:00 PM
This isn't a matter of opinion.
The author states there was no provision made for funding and I quoted the relevant sections of state law that show, without a doubt that the provisions of Proposition B are funded.
Funding for the additional provisions? What additional provisions? These are a refinement of what exists now. There should be no need for any additional inspector time because of Proposition B. In fact, the opposite should occur, because there will be fewer dogs to inspect.
A quick read of Proposition B shows there is nothing in the bill about immediate seizure of the dogs. This isn't opinion, this is fact.
I'll tell you other facts that provide some background for this story. There's the fact that state representatives actually introduced a bill that would make deny the citizen initiative process if it was in any way related to animals. Luckily, the bill failed. Failed by threatened filibuster I believe.
State reps introduced a bill that would require more votes for any initiative that was related to animals. This one also failed.
State reps introduced a bill to try to make it illegal to post photos and videos taken of commercial dog breeders and other types of farms, if the items were taken without the owner's permission. This failed.
I can go on, but I think we see the pattern, and the reasons why people had to finally go the initiative route. And why the talk of "amending" Proposition B now, is so alarming.
The agricultural interests have a disproportionate influence in Jefferson City, and yes, that is part of this story, too. The part that wasn't told.
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pat 01/05/2011 5:01:00 AM
we would be better off to ignore you. you are clueless. i am sure there are some bad facilities. i am just as sure that the majority are good facilities that take care and love their animals. you are not the judge. i know that you would do better because you are so superior. i am sure that you are a professional breeder and know the best way for everything to be done. where do these people find these tiny cages? and these rusty wires? i bet you would like to 'control' my horse care. rest assured that will not happen.
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pat 01/05/2011 4:50:00 AM
That is a nice dog!!!!! this dirty dozen name doesnt seem to be working i saw the prop b ads and they held up a half dead dog. something doesnt float here.
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01/05/2011 4:48:00 AM
looks like we are all entitled to our own opinions on this matter.
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Guest 01/05/2011 4:10:00 AM
Sarah, you and HSUS are so full of it! You LIE about so many things. Unfortunately, your lies have been repeated so often (by design, I'm sure), that some of the clueless city folks are still buying what you are selling. I am not, of course. You need to read the ACFA regs and quit lying. Dogs can be exposed to freezing temps? No, that one is IF prop B stands as is. Then there is unfettered access.to extremes weather, and breeders can no longer protect their dogs and puppies. I have never seen dogs in any kennel housed in such small quarters. Minimums mean just that. Even then, singly housed dogs requires double space if not exercised otherwise. Why would you say the dogs are never taken out of their pen? Who would do that? You and your fellow animal rights activists know nothing about how Missouri licensed kennels operate. How many legal licensed kennels have you even seen?
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01/05/2011 3:52:00 AM
Shelter vets are the ones that deal with the negative repercussions of commercial dog breeding.
Over 150 vets came out for Proposition B, and the No on Prop B had about 20.
The general body of the MVMA did not vote against Proposition B. It was a decision of the executive staff to come out against Proposition B.
After all, they can't afford to offend the agricultural interests in this state.
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01/05/2011 3:48:00 AM
Ms. Wickman, and here we have your "balanced viewpoint". I wondered how long it would be before the "you're all terrorists!" people came along.
Yes, so many excuses to stay in the shadow. To hide, to keep your dirty little secrets.
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Guest 01/05/2011 3:41:00 AM
Shelter vets are hardly experts in knowing how to operate a dog breeding kennel, unless of course they are secretly breeding the dogs the shelters are supposed to be selling to good homes (yes, I said selling).. The true professionals are the vets who actually visit the kennels for inspections and advise and treat any problems. There are several thousand vets in Missouri, I believe. Most of them were against prop B.
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Guest 01/05/2011 3:32:00 AM
And did you, as a supposed journalist, ever stop to think how truthful the statements by the MVMA and others are, when you witnessed the absurd security at the auction? And realize the secretive nature of dog breeders?
Shelley Powers have you ever stopped to think why dog breeders try to keep a low profile? The HSUS and a lot of other animal rights nuts are trying to put us out of business any way they can. We suspect many AR terrorists are truly dangerous (possibly due to their lack of animal protien in their diets?) and many breeders are resorting to locked gates or other precautions. Thanks to the HSUS and cronies, dog breeders are a hated group. You don't believe it, check out the comments on the net. Even here, the subject brings the crazies out.
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01/05/2011 3:32:00 AM
Over 150 Missourian veterinarians came out for Proposition B. This included veterinarians at shelters, including the Humane Society of Missouri.
I don't know how "expert" you want people to be, but I think shelter veterinarians have a pretty good idea of the ugly side of commercial dog breeding.
So many "guest" commenters against Proposition B.
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01/05/2011 3:28:00 AM
You interviewed Meadows, who did not see the dogs. Meadows, a man who came out vehemently against Proposition B, in opposition to other veterinarian school teaching staff at the same school that came out for Proposition B.
He doesn't work for any shelter. He does good with the spay/neuter programs, but he's not a shelter expert.
What other rescue groups did you interview? How about from other mills rescues? Did you interview anyone from the Humane Society of Missouri? How about Wayside Waifs over in Kansas City?
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01/05/2011 3:21:00 AM
While I work at HSUS, I have family in Missouri, and am proud to know that they voted Yes on Prop B. The fact that people are trying to convince elected officials to repeal Prop B shows how low some will go. Officials should respect the will of the people. Subverting the judgment of voters is not right, and it is anti-democratic. Like it or not, our system is built on majority rule, and a majority of Missouri citizens—including majorities in most House and Senate legislative districts—favored Prop B.
The precise reason that voters acted, is because the legislature has failed to stop puppy mill abuses. It is extremely undemocratic and wrong of lawmakers to usurp the power of the people and ignore their expressed will.
Additionally, Prop B was a simple measure, dealing only with setting standards for commercial dog breeding, and has no connection whatsoever to Missouri’s important agriculture and livestock economy. The opponents’ campaign was based entirely on falsehoods and misrepresentations in an attempt to confuse voters. The truth is, Prop B dealt only with dogs. It does not deal with cattle, chickens, or pigs. (I realize that there are those that disagree, but again, Prop B. only. deals. with. dogs.
While many voters were wrongly told that existing regulations on dog breeding are adequate, the fact is that they are not. Under pre-Prop B rules, a dog can be in a cage just six inches longer than her body, she can be confined in that cage and never let out, she need not ever see a veterinarian, and a dog can be huddled in a wire cage in the middle of winter—exposed to freezing temperatures. All of that is legal under existing rules, and that’s why we needed Prop B.
The new regulations—requiring adequate and clean food and water, exercise, properly sized and sanitary cages, veterinary care, protection from extreme heat and cold and adequate time between breeding cycles, are very reasonable, as Missourians of good will—including responsible breeders—know. Prop B also provides a one-year phase-in so breeders have plenty of time to comply with these new standards.
For anyone that suspects a puppy mill to be operating, I urge you to contact the puppy mill task force, a tipline dedicated to investigative puppy mills. 1-877-MILL-TIP
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Guest 01/05/2011 3:12:00 AM
By failing to consult actual practitioners of dog husbandry, the proposition's authors may have missed out on crucial knowledge.
This is the understatement of the year! What is not redundant in proposition B is certainly not geared to the welfare of breeding dogs. It is so obvious to ANY experienced dog breeder that the bill is specifically aimed at putting the good breeders out of business, by demanding expensive
changes in housing and restricting income to pay for it by limiting breeding stock and trying to play breeding police, as well.
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Michaelguentz 01/05/2011 3:12:00 AM
puppie mills are just another way of how missouri handels things they just dont care thats why they call us all a bunch fo red neck gun slinging hossiers wh are number 1 in murder ,puppy mills ,bad place to live ,unemployment. our congress men and state senators dont no shit.
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01/05/2011 3:07:00 AM
And I refuted most of the "cons", including the one that doesn't even exist in the bill.
Bluntly: all puppy mills are bad. If that makes me simple, fine.
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01/05/2011 3:03:00 AM
Kase Wickman, Proposition B was not a bill to reform the Department of Agriculture, nor to replace ACFA. It was specific, and precise, and intended to plug gaps in the existing law in regards to commercial dog breeders. No more, no less.
If there are issues with the Department of Agriculture, the fact that inspectors were lax in collecting fees, and how the inspection fee amount hasn't been raised since 1993 these are not issues that Proposition B had to address.
It was not Proposition B's mandate to reform the Department of Agriculture. The best legislation is that which is finite and specific. You can't reform an entire department using the citizen initiative.
Balanced perspective? Not likely. You haven't spent time reading through the inspections in the USDA APHIS database have you?
So, how many large scale commercial dog breeders did you visit? How many with the fancy and costly renovations?
Did you just randomly pick some breeders and visit them without calling first? So you could see for yourself how these "farms" work?
How many invitations have you received to go out and photograph the larger commercial dog breeders?
As a journalist, such secrecy should be abhorrent to you. Rather than investigate it, though, you embraced it. You enabled it.
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Guest 01/05/2011 2:48:00 AM
"A more balanced view," Shelley, is probably what you should consider. After all, this piece presents both the pros and cons of Prop B -- unless you think there are no cons and it's the most perfect piece of legislation to come along in 100 years.
It's a pretty simplistic view to only say that all puppy mills are bad -- judging from your comment though, I'd imagine simplicity is your strong suit.
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Bill 01/05/2011 2:43:00 AM
http://www.ksdk.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=222722 IF you know of a dog being abused in st louis county give these people a call.
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01/05/2011 2:15:00 AM
Shelley-
If you're asking whether I spoke with rescue groups, I'd direct you to the exact article you are commenting on, where I quote Ms. Backes, and several other rescue groups.
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01/05/2011 2:15:00 AM
Shelley-
If you're asking whether I spoke with rescue groups, I'd direct you to the exact article you are commenting on, where I quote Ms. Backes, and several other rescue groups.
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01/05/2011 2:07:00 AM
Shelley-
Proposition B does not, in fact, provide any additional funding for the inspection program. The USDA Inspector General audit of the inspection program pointed out that more money is needed for training and personnel in the federal program, and the state's ACFA compliance team (which, with new state standards, will have to act alone, where before they could buddy up with USDA personnel) is also sorely understaffed. You're right--the state will have the same money from the licenses as it did before, and it still won't be enough.
As for targeting dog breeders, a) there's no legal definition of a puppy mill and b) even if there were an agreed-upon definition, not ALL commercial dog breeders would qualify as puppy mills. And no, it's not that they're "JUST" dogs, as you say, it's that many breeders have spent a pretty penny building new facilities and kennels (not stacked wire cages), and a change in regulations forces them to completely renovate their facility. A look at both perspectives is needed.
The point of all this is that while the existing laws aren't perfect, neither are the new guidelines that Prop B would install.
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01/05/2011 2:03:00 AM
cont.
Let's talk about the unfettered access, because goodness knows, there is no such thing as a doggy door, and if there were, caring dog owners would never install one.
And goodness, how rare dogs must be, because few survive, they're too stupid to get in out of the cold or heat. Thank goodness for the commercial breeders, saving these rare and abysmally stupid species.
Oh, and there is no provision about dogs being confiscated "on the spot". Did you even read Proposition B? No, of course you didn't. Journalists don't _read_. How silly.
As for those "healthy and well socialized" dogs from the auction -- did you talk with any of the rescue groups?
"When Kelly Backes and other St. Charles Humane Society volunteers walked into a puppy mill in Mexico, Mo., they saw dogs that could barely walk, having been caged up for most of their lives. They saw malnourished dogs covered in feces."
http://www.stltoday.com/suburban-journals/stcharles/news/article_1ef096e5-aa20-5227-91f6-af0d312375eb.html
And Mr. Hughes, well now, he comes from a real pedigree. Did you ask him about a certain truck transporting puppies to pet stores that broke down in Nashville? And how the driver just left the dogs in the hot truck while it was being fixed, not bothering to tell the mechanics about the dogs. Four dogs died in the heat before the mechanics called for rescue when they heard the dogs whimpering.
Did you ask him about the Do-Bo-Tri kennel?
I have chatted with Mr. Hughes. Told him his "legal" threat was a load of bull. So he brought out the bully boys--yup, real above board business this.
And did you, as a supposed journalist, ever stop to think how truthful the statements by the MVMA and others are, when you witnessed the absurd security at the auction? And realize the secretive nature of dog breeders?
Above board industries do not have dirty little secrets.
Oh, and here's a final story from that auction:
http://stlseniordogproject.typepad.com/the_st_louis_senior_dog_p/2010/11/farewell-to-annie-berg.html
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01/05/2011 1:23:00 AM
What a hectic article. The only thing that comes clearly through is the author's sympathies for the dog breeders.
Too bad the author also didn't do a better job on fact checking. For one, that statement about no funding provision. Copying from another comment at another web site with journalists too busy to check facts:
I direct your attention to Missouri Revised Statutes:
In the section titled "Animal care reserve fund created--all license fees to be deposited in fund--purpose and uses--lapse to general revenue, prohibited."
273.357. All fees collected by the director from licenses issued under sections 273.325 to 273.357 shall be used to administer the provisions of sections 273.325 to 273.357, and shall be deposited in the state treasury to the credit of the "Animal Care Reserve Fund", which is hereby created. All moneys deposited in the animal care reserve fund shall be subject to appropriation for the use and benefit of the department of agriculture to administer the provisions of sections 273.325 to 273.357. Notwithstanding the provisions of section 33.080 to the contrary, moneys in the animal care reserve fund shall not be transferred to the general revenue fund at the end of the biennium.
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Proposition B is added as 273.345, including it within the range given above. Therefore Proposition B's funding is already mandated by law.
If existing funding is inadequate for Proposition B, it is inadequate for the existing regulations without Proposition B. If anything, Proposition B should lessen the burden on inspectors as it sets an upper limit for breeding dogs, and the inspection criteria is less subjective, much simpler to enforce. In addition, we should see a decrease in bad breeders, who take up the majority of inspector time.
As for it targeting commercial dog breeders, its the puppy mill bill! What the heck do you expect? This wasn't the "target the crappy shelter" bill, because Missouri is not known for crappy shelters. Nor was it the "target the really lousy dog borderer" bill, because again we're not known as the really lousy dog borderer capital of the country.
I mean, seriously?
Forcing massive renovations--because it's so much easier to stack a bunch wire cages, and so much cheaper too.
After all, they're just dogs, right?
So let's keep dogs in cages 6 inches longer than they are made of wire, stacked on top of each other. Let's keep dogs in outdoor kennels, where they freeze tonight and broil in the heat in the summer.
Let's not bother reading any of the USDA APHIS inspection reports at http://acissearch.aphis.usda.gov/LPASearch/faces/LPASearch.jspx. Forget the dead dogs among the living, the dogs shivering with little or no bedding, blinded because they lost an eye when it was jabbed by a loose, rusty wire.
No, let's talk to tame MVMA vets, who join with the AKC in support of the people, over the animals. Let's ignore the 150+ vets who came out in favor of Proposition B. Let's ignore the vets at most of the shelters in the state who could have talked to you about this, if you had even consider perhaps maybe getting a more balanced view.