A. George Allen, Jr.
Q. Now, speak up just a little, George.
A. George Allen, Jr.
Q. And you are a negro male?
A. Right.
Q. And how old are you?
A. Twenty-six.
Q. And your date of birth?
A. 3/5/56.
Q. And what is your home address?
A. 7155 Willow Tree Lane.
Q. Willow Tree Lane? And where is that located at?
A. University City, Missouri.
Q. And you got a telephone out there?
A. Yes.
Q. What -- what is the phone number?
A. 721-1398.
Q. Okay. Now, George before I talk to you, which we do with everyone, we advise of their constitutional rights. I'll read you your constitutional rights.
They are that you have the right to remain silent. Do you understand that?
A. I understand.
Q. Okay. Anything you say can be used against you in court, you understand that?
A. Yeah, I understand.
Q. Okay, you have the right to a lawyer and to have him with you while you are being questioned. You understand that?
A. Yeah, I understand.
Q. Okay. If you cannot afford to hire a lawyer one'll be appointed for you before any questioning, if you so desire. Do you understand that?
A. Yeah, I understand.
Q. Do you understand these constitutional rights?
A. I understand the rights.
Q. Okay. And a while ago when -- when we were talkin' about this incident, I showed you some pictures of an apartment complex; the pictures as they lay right in front of you, and I asked you if you had ever been down to these apartments, ah, particularly, ah, in February when we had the deep snow. And you looked at the pictures and was you down in that area?
A. Yeah, I was down there.
Q. Okay. You remember if it was in the morning or the afternoon? Can you remember?
A. It was late -- late at night.
Q. You sure of that?
A. I'm sure.
Q. Positive? Was it daylight or dark?
A. Around dusk. Around just before dark.
Q. You sure of that now?
A. Right.
Q. You're not mistaken about the time of day?
A. I don't think so. I mean, no, I'm not mistaken.
Q. Okay. Do you remember when you were down in that area?
A. I remember.
Q. Okay. I showed you some pictures of some doors, different colored doors and I'll show you again the pictures of the doors and a wooden deck and steps, you see that there?
A. Yeah, I see it.
Q. Okay. He is currently being shown a photograph of the deck and steps leading to, ah, Mary Bell's apartment. Had you ever been up on that deck and in fact, had you ever knocked on that particular door?
A. Yeah, I did.
Q. Okay. Do you remember talkin' to anybody? Did anyone answer the door?
A. Yeah, she answered the door.
Q. She? Who is she?
A. A lady.
Q. And what did she look like as you remember her?
A. Ah, I guess white.
Q. She was white?
A. True. Dark hair, I guess.
Q. Did she look -- what did she look like?
A. Ah, she around twenty -- twenty-five.
Q. All right. When -- when I asked you what she looked like, George, I mean was she an attractive woman, or ah --
A. Yeah, she was attractive.
Q. Did she have a nice body on her?
A. Yeah.
Q. Huh? You remember how she was dressed at that time?
A. Uh, I think she had on a nightgown.
Q. She had a nightgown on?
A. Think so.
Q. You don't remember what color it was?
A. I think it was white.
Q. Okay. Looked kind of light colored?
A. Right.
Q. Okay. What did you say to her when she answered the door?
A. I say, "Can I come in and get warm for a few minutes?"
Q. And what'd she say?
A. (No response).
Q. Not that you ever -- should remember the exact words unless you do.
A. Ah, I think she says she don't usually let men in the house, ah, that she didn't know.
Q. Okay. So you -- you didn't really know her, did you?
A. No, I didn't know her.
Q. And what -- did she let you in there?
A. No, I don't think so. I think I forced my way in.
Q. Well, then what happened?
A. Ah, we started to wrastlin'.
Q. I mean, do you remember when you went in the door, did you go up some steps or what happened? Ah, you remember?
A. Well, I think I was chasin' her up the steps.
Q. Then what happened upstairs?
A. Well, I was wrastlin' with her, tryin' to force some answers.
Q. Then what happened?
A. Ah, I think we went to bed together. And, ah, after that --
Q. Do you remember the bed?
A. Uh, it was a brass bed.
Q. Are you sayin' that because I showed you a picture of that or do you recall that?
A. I recall it.
Q. Okay.
A. Uh, then --
Q. You had -- did you have sex with her?
A. I think I did.
Q. What do you mean you think you did. You just said you chased her --
A. Uh --
Q. -- up the steps.
A. I did.
Q. And was it, ah, the normal thing or was it different ways or --
A. Well, it was more like I -- it was in a hurry and all, didn't know which way, you know I was --
Q. Did ya -- did you ah -- ah, go the front way?
A. Ah, yeah, the front was all there was to it, I think.
Q. Did you stick it in her butt?
A. Ah, no, I didn't.
Q. You sure of that?
A. Uh, no, I'm not sure.
Q. Could you have?
A. I might have. I could have.
Q. But you do remember going the normal way, the front way?
A. Yeah, I remember.
Q. Okay. Was there anything about her body that especially turned you on?
A. Um, her chest, breasts.
Q. What was -- what about her breasts?
A. They were large.
Q. Large breasts? And how was her body itself, was it, ah, -- describe her body, if you can.
A. Um, she was about, I'd say, five six, um maybe a hundred and twenty-five pounds.
Q. Uh-huh.
A. And, ah, thirty-eight, twenty-seven, twenty-five.
Q. Shit man, you talkin' about a big -- big, big chest, ain't ya? You sound like you're an authority on measurements. What'd you say thirty-eight --
A. Twenty-seven, thirty-five.
Q. Sounds awful good, doesn't it?
A. Yeah.
Q. Huh? Did she -- you said that -- you said that when she opened the door she said that she wasn't gonna let you up in there, right? And you forced your way in because -- didn't you say that she didn't let people in that she didn't know?
A. Yeah, that's what she said.
Q. Okay, then -- then I asked you if she let you in and your answer was what?
A. Um, my answer was I forced my way in.
Q. Okay. And then I asked you if you went up the steps and you said you did what?
A. Yeah, I went up the steps.
Q. Well --
A. I was chasin' her.
Q. Uh, okay. Okay. And she was wearin' what you said looked like a what?
A. A white nightgown.
Q. Okay. Did you have sex -- other than on the bed did you have sex anyplace else in that room?
A. Uh --
Q. Can you remember that?
A. On the floor. And, ah, I guess over against the wall and then --
Q. On the floor, next to where?
A. Next to the bed.
Q. Next to the bed. Between the bed and what?
A. Uh, the wall.
Q. Okay. Did you stick it in her butt?
A. Yeah, I guess I did. Yeah.
Q. Was she -- was she resisting this, George?
A. Uh, yes, she was.
Q. Had you ever had white girls before?
A. Yeah, I have.
Q. Huh? Well, where -- when you had white girls before, did you usually stick it in their butt like that, or --
A. Yeah, if it went in.
Q. (Inaudible) Okay. Now what you said so far is that you forced -- you chased her up the steps. You kind of forced your way in. You chased her up the steps. You went to the -- put her on the bed where you had relationship with her. Okay? Is that what you said? Answer, I can't --
A. Yeah, that's what I said.
Q. Okay. And I asked you if you had sex anyplace other than on the bed and you said --
A. Yeah.
Q. Where?
A. On the floor.
Q. Between the bed and --
A. The wall.
Q. And the wall. Was she still resisting you?
A. Yes, she was.
Q. Okay. Did you take her, either before you went to bed with her, into any other part of the house?
A. I don't remember it really.
Q. You don't remember? I mean, was she -- when she came up the steps was she, ah, running around the apartment or did she run right to the bed, or --
A. She ran in one room up and tried to, ah, hold the door shut.
Q. She tried to hold the door shut?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. And that door led to what?
A. The bedroom.
Q. To the bedroom. When you came up the steps where was this door at?
A. Uh, the door was the first door you get to.
Q. Right as you come up the steps?
A. Um-hm.
Q. And what you're sayin' is she ran in there and closed that door and tried to keep you from gettin' in?
A. Right.
Q. Is that what you said?
A. (No response)
Q. Okay. You had intercourse with her in bed then you put her on the floor. And had intercourse with her. Is that what you said?
A. Yeah.
Q. Then what happened?
A. Uh, then I remember, uh, puttin' on my clothes and runnin' out the door.
Q. Oh, but didn't you do somethin' first?
A. I don't remember doin' anything else.
Q. Huh? Did you take anything from the house?
A. No, I didn't do nothin'.
Q. You sure?
A. I'm sure.
Q. Nothin?
A. No.
Q. Did you pick up a towel while you was in the house?
A. Yeah, I guess I did.
Q. What color was it, do you remember?
A. Um, I don't know.
Q. Okay. Did you wrap anything in this towel?
A. No.
A. No.
Q. Think now, George?
A. I don't remember -- I don't remember taking anything. I remember runnin' out of the house, that's all I know.
Q. Okay. When you was in the house did you hear any noises? Like noises comin' from the outside? Or noises from the inside?
A. No, I didn't.
Q. Nothin'?
A. Nothin'.
Q. You're sure?
A. I'm sure.
Q. When you ran out down the steps, all right, and before you went out the door, did you do anything?
A. No, I didn't.
Q. You're sure?
A. I'm sure.
Q. Was anybody with you?
A. Uh-huh. No, I was by myself.
Q. By yourself. George?
A. Huh?
Q. Look at me now, son. Look at me now. You knocked on this woman's door, right?
A. Yeah, right.
Q. She opened the door. She was wearing a nightgown or somethin', right?
A. Yeah.
Q. Is this right?
A. Right.
Q. You asked her to come in because you was cold? This is what you said?
A. Yeah.
Q. And she said that she don't let me in that she don't know.
A. Right.
Q. Right? And then you said that you forced your way in? Is that what you said?
A. Yeah.
Q. And you chased her up the steps.
A. Yeah.
Q. And that she went into a room and slammed the door?
A. Yeah.
Q. And you said the room -- the door was right on top of the steps. Is that what you said?
A. Yeah, that's what I said.
Q. And that you forced this door open?
A. Yeah.
Q. And that was the bedroom?
A. That was it.
Q. And you got her in there and you put her on the bed?
A. Right.
Q. And you had sex with her on the bed? Is this what you said?
A. That's what I said.
Q. And I asked you if you have anyplace else and you said on the floor between the bed and wall. Is this what you said?
A. Yeah, that's what I said.
Q. I asked you what you liked in particular about her body and you said her --
A. Her breasts.
Q. Her breasts?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. Because they were --
A. Large.
Q. Large. You even gave us the measurements, right? Thirty-eight twenty-five --
A. Thirty-eight.
Q. Thirty-eight twenty-five? Okay.
A. Right.
Q. After you had completed this sex with her, during the time that she -- you was having sex with her did she scream or anything?
A. Yes, she did.
Q. Real loud?
A. Yeah. Ah, think it was somebody knockin' on her door and yellin' out her name or somethin'.
Q. You heard knockin' on the door?
A. Yeah. Yellin' out her name.
Q. Did you hear the name that was --
A. Ah, no, Sherry or somethin' like Sherry. Somethin' -- I don't know her name.
Q. How many times did you hear knocks on the door?
A. Well, they was beatin' on the door, and askin' was everything all right. And, ah --
Q. Was that a man's voice or a woman's voice or a child's voice or -- was --
A. It was a woman.
Q. A woman's voice?
A. Yeah. And, ah, she, ah -- she said, um -- I don't remember what she said, but she had went away. She went away.
Q. How long was she there about?
A. About five minutes.
Q. And knocked on the door, woman's voice said somethin' then she walked away?
A. Right.
Q. Or the person walked away. Okay?
A. Well, she went into her house, I think she came out the door next door.
Q. Why'd you say that?
A. Because that's what it sounded like the door closin'.
Q. Oh, you heard a door close?
A. Well, I heard it open and close.
Q. Oh, okay. But you did hear somebody knockin' on the door?
A. Right.
Q. What -- what -- after you had had intercourse with her -- of course she resisted this, she didn't want this, right?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. Okay. Was she -- when you started to go was she still screamin' or what was she doin'. 'Cause what's gonna keep her from screamin' if you left?
A. Well, I had hit her a couple a times and I think she was, ah --
Q. What'd you hit her with?
A. My hand.
Q. Well, -- didn't use nothin' else? Think about it now?
A. Uh-uh, nothin' else.
Q. Huh?
A. That was it.
Q. Well, I know you're a, you know, you're a pretty good size man.
A. Yeah.
Q. Didn't you cut her?
A. No, I don't remember cuttin' her.
Q. Didn't you get somethin' from the house and cut her?
A. What, like a knife from the kitchen? It might have happened that I hit her or somethin --
Q. I'm just --
A. -- but I don't remember it.
Q. I didn't say a knife in the kitchen. You said knife in a kitchen. I'm askin' you if you -- if you got anything? Why did you say knife in the kitchen?
A. I know I recall chasin' her through the house.
Q. Do you remember stickin' her with a knife. You remember all this other stuff?
A. No. I don't remember stickin' her with one, no.
Q. Do you remember havin' the knife?
A. Um, I remember I had a lady finger.
Q. What's a lady finger?
A. A knife about this long, sometime one carries.
Q. No, I'm talkin' about somethin' that might be bigger than that.
A. I don't remember havin' one.
Q. Think about it. You remember everything else. You remember the big titties, you remember the waist, you remember this, you remember that, you remember the steps, you remember the door. I'm askin' you about the knife.
A. No, I don't think so.
Q. You don't think so. Well, you said you hit her, right?
A. I hit her before I ran out of the house.
Q. Did you knock her out?
A. I think so. She was knocked out when I left.
Q. Well, how -- how was she knocked out?
A. I hit her pretty hard.
Q. Huh?
A. I hit her hard.
Q. With your fists?
A. Right.
Q. You didn't cut her?
A. No.
Q. You sure?
A. I'm sure.
Q. Absolutely positive?
A. Positive.
Q. Positive?
A. Positive.
Q. How did it feel just to -- you didn't cut her? (Cough)
A. No, I didn't. (Cough -- chair scoots)
Q. How many times you hit her?
A. About five or six times.
Q. Was there anything else on the floor close to the bed that you can remember? Somethin' sittin' on the floor?
A. I don't remember anything.
Q. Think about it. Was the place neat or was it kinda upset or what?
A. Yeah, it was neat.
Q. Do you remember going to the kitchen? Do you remember going to the kitchen?
A. I remember chasin' her through the kitchen.
Q. Well, awhile ago when I said did you cut her, you said --
A. Later, but I didn't cut her.
Q. With a -- with a -- what with a knife in the kitchen? And I was just wonderin' why you said that?
A. She -- I -- she might a had a knife or -- I didn't. She, you know --
Q. Did she have a knife?
A. I don't need a knife to handle most women?
Q. Well, I mean, there's no question about that, George, you're pretty good sized man.
A. No, I didn't have a knife.
Q. But I'm asking you did you see a knife?
A. I -- I saw one. She had it.
Q. She had a knife?
A. She had it, I knocked it from her hand.
Q. Oh, okay. Okay. Well then she had the knife. And she had the knife for what purpose?
A. Try and, you know, ah, you know, stop me from wrastlin' with her.
Q. Okay. Okay, did she cut you?
A. No, she didn't.
Q. You got no cuts on you?
A. No.
Q. Huh?
A. No.
Q. If I asked you to take your shirt off and everything I would see no cuts, would I?
A. No.
Q. None at all?
A. No cuts.
Q. No place on your body?
A. No cuts.
Q. You sure of that?
A. I'm sure.
Q. 'Cause I will look, you know?
A. I know.
Q. How about on your legs? On your knees?
A. Um --
Q. Nothin'. I'm gonna look, you know. Okay?
A. Sure.
Q. What'd this knife look like? (Cough)
A. It was a big butcher knife.
Q. Huh?
A. Big butcher knife.
Q. How long would you say it is?
A. Twelve.
Q. You're indicatin' how long?
A. About twelve inches long.
Q. About twelve inches? Did she drop the knife when you started to wrestle her?
A. Yeah, she dropped it.
Q. Did you pick it up?
A. No.
Q. Think about it now.
A. I didn't. You know.
Q. You didn't touch the knife?
A. No.
Q. You sure of that?
A. I'm sure. I didn't touch it.
Q. We have the knife, you know. Do you remember if you touched the knife?
A. Yeah, I guess so. Yeah.
Q. What'd you do with the knife then? She tried to hurt ya?
A. I don't remember.
Q. I want to show you a picture of a knife, and I'm gonna ask you to look at this knife. See that knife? Picture of that knife? Does that -- you ever see that knife before?
A. Yeah, in the house.
Q. In whose house?
A. The lady's house.
Q. And where did you see it at? The first time you seen it where'd you see it at?
A. In her hand.
Q. In what room?
A. The kitchen.
Q. Okay. Then you -- did you see it again then? Did you see where she'd gotten it from?
A. No, I didn't see.
Q. Did you see any other --
A. Got it out of her drawer.
Q. Well, are you sure? Did you see any other knives there?
A. No.
Q. This is the only knife you seen?
A. Huh.
Q. Did it look like the knife you're lookin' at in the picture?
A. Yeah, it looks like the one.
Q. Okay. And did she have this knife in the kitchen? Did she have it also in the bedroom?
A. She had it in the kitchen.
Q. She -- did she take it to the bedroom?
A. No.
Q. Huh?
A. I don't remember her takin' it to the bedroom.
Q. Okay. What -- did you take a knife away from her in the kitchen or -- or -- you remember that?
A. Uh, I remember takin' it away from her and throwin' it on the floor.
Q. Okay. In what room, son? (Cough)
A. Kitchen.
Q. So after she ran from the kitchen she went back into the bedroom, is this what you're sayin?
A. Yeah, that's what I'm sayin.
Q. Did she grab the knife before you had intercourse with her or after she had intercourse? After you had intercourse?
A. Before.
Q. Before. After you had had intercourse with her, you said you hit her with your fists?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. Did you knock her out? Did you hit her in the face?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. Did you go back and pick up the knife?
A. No.
Q. George?
A. I didn't.
Q. George, did you stab this woman?
A. I don't remember stabbin' her.
Q. Could you have stabbed her and don't remember?
A. I could have.
Q. How many times did you stab her, George?
A. I don't remember. I -- you know --
Q. You remember everything else. You remember how big her titties was. You remember how big her waist was. You remember everything else. Why wouldn't you remember that? Look at me.
A. I don't remember.
Q. Look me --
A. I don't --
Q. Look at me. Look at me, George.
A. -- because I'm a heavy drinker, and if I did it I was drunk at the time, I know.
Q. But how can you remember about everything else but you can't remember this?
A. Well, I'm picturin' it in my mind, you know.
Q. You're picturing what in your mind?
A. What happened.
Q. What happened? You tell me.
A. That's just what I said.
Q. I wasn't there.
A. That's what happened.
Q. But you're not saying anything about stabbin' her.
A. Was she stabbed?
Q. Yes, she was stabbed.
A. Well, she was stabbed during the fight, then.
(End of side one of tape)
Q. -- made by George Allen, Jr. The other tape -- side one of the tape ran out at approximately two twenty-one p.m. on March the 14th, 1982, the second side is bein' started at approximately two twenty-two p.m. Ah, I will again advise you of your constitutional rights for the purpose of the second side. Give me your name, again, will you please?
A. George Allen, Jr.
Q. Okay, George, I will again advise you of your constitutional rights.
That you have the right to remain silent. Do you understand?
A. I understand.
Q. Anything you say can and will be used against you in court. Do you understand?
A. I understand.
Q. You have the right to a lawyer and to have him with you while you're being questioned. Do you understand?
A. I understand.
Q. If you cannot afford to hire a lawyer one'll be appointed for you before any questioning if you so desire. Do you understand?
A. I understand.
Q. Okay. These are the same rights that I read to you on the other side of the tape?
A. Yeah.
Q. Okay. Now, continuing, ah, where we left off, I had showed you -- you had mentioned first that when you went up in the woman's apartment that she ran into the kitchen and grabbed a knife. Is that right?
A. Right.
Q. And I asked you to describe that knife and you says -- you indicated with your hands that it was about how long?
A. About this long.
Q. And you're indicatin' how long? How many inches would you say?
A. About twelve.
Q. And then I asked you to look at a picture of a knife. And which you looked at. And that's the picture in front of you. Does that look like the knife?
A. That looks like it.
Q. Is that the knife?
A. That's it.
Q. Okay. And you say that she dropped the knife in the kitchen and then went into the bedroom? Is that what you said?
A. Yeah, that's what I said.
Q. And you said that you had intercourse with her on the bed. Is that what you said?
A. (No response)
Q. Is that what you said?
A. Yeah, that's what I said.
Q. And I asked you if had -- you had intercourse with her anyplace else, other than the bed, and you said --
A. Yeah.
Q. Where?
A. On the floor.
Q. Between the bed and --
A. The wall.
Q. Okay. I asked you when you got ready to leave was she -- how was she? Was she screaming or what was she doing?
A. Was just -- well, that must have been when we had the fight.
Q. What fight? You didn't say anything about a fight. What fight you talkin' about?
A. When we were struggling, in the kitchen. And in the bedroom.
Q. Before you had intercourse?
A. Right.
Q. What happened then?
A. Well, she grabbed the knife.
Q. And then what happened?
A. And then we got in a fight.
Q. Did you get the knife then?
A. I don't remember gettin' it. I ran out the door. I was afraid. I didn't even look back.
Q. Was the fight before you had the intercourse or after you had intercourse?
A. Uh, it was one -- before and after.
Q. You had two fights with her?
A. Right.
Q. When you got done having intercourse with her, on the floor --
A. Yeah.
Q. And when you got ready to leave, was she -- how -- what was she doin'?
A. She was, ah, actually tryin' to hold me there.
Q. Hold ya there? Keep ya there?
A. Right.
Q. For what reason?
A. Until somebody call the police, I guess.
Q. You said that you heard somebody knockin' on the door?
A. Right.
Q. And you heard a person's voice and I asked you --
A. She -- she, ah, -- I think she left to get the police 'cause she had -- she slammed on her -- her door -- her neighbor's door slammed, all right?
Q. You heard -- you heard somebody knockin' on the door, you said. Right?
A. I heard her -- I heard it, yeah.
Q. All right. And you heard --
A. They was at the door. Like they was beatin' at the door.
Q. Okay. You heard a voice, right? And I asked you what kind of voice and you said it was -- I asked you --
A. A woman's voice.
Q. A woman's voice. When you heard the woman's voice what was you doing by -- when you heard the knocking on the door, what was you doing at that time?
A. I was wrestlin' with the woman. We was, ah -- well, I was wrestlin' with her.
Q. Okay. When did she get cut? You remember everything, George, up to the point where she got cut.
A. I don't remember that. I don't -- I don't remember whether it was before or after, but I think it was after.
Q. Okay. Did you cut her?
A. Yeah.
Q. How many times you stab her?
A. I don't remember, all I know is when we were fightin' and when she fell I ran away.
Q. She fall on her stomach or on her back or what?
A. I don't -- I don't remember how she fell.
Q. Did you cut her many times or just once or more than once or what, George?
A. Um, I really don't remember. It was, you know, it was a struggle and I -- I know she had the knife.
Q. Yeah.
A. And I took it from her, I guess. I don't remember how many times I stabbed her.
Q. You remember if -- if you stabbed her in the chest or in the legs or what part of her body, do you remember?
A. I remember strugglin' with her, I remember that she fell, and I remember I ran.
Q. Did you do anything else besides cut her? You remember what part of the body you cut her on?
A. I don't know.
Q. Huh?
A. If it was anywhere it had to be on her chest, 'cause um, this, ah --
Q. What do you mean, if it was anywhere? George, you're the one that was there, we wasn't there.
A. I don't remember her -- her gettin' stabbed. I remember -- all I remember was wrastlin' wit her and, ah -- that's all I remember.
Q. You was by yourself, is that right? Was anybody with you?
A. No.
Q. So you was there alone?
A. Right.
Q. Nobody else went and took that woman to bed and forced their way up them steps but you, is that right?
A. Right.
Q. And nobody else had her on that bed and on that floor but you, is that right?
A. That's right.
Q. George, look at me now.
A. Huh?
Q. Did you cut her? Look at me, George, don't look at the table.
A. I don't remember cuttin' her.
Q. But you remember everything else.
A. I -- when I -- when -- when -- when I'm threatened with a weapon I'm -- I don't, ah, usually think, I just react. And I --
Q. You just react?
A. And I don't remember her -- whether she had cut me or not.
Q. Okay. You remember afterward now, after you had the struggle and about the knife, and this and that, you remember pickin' up that knife?
A. Um --
Q. Or did you still have the knife in your hand?
A. I don't remember pickin' it up at all.
Q. How did you cut her then, if you didn't have a knife in your hand?
A. It might have been durin' the fight. I could have forced her to cut herself.
Q. Did you pick up a towel?
A. I think I did.
Q. Did you put anything in that towel? Did you wrap anything up in that towel?
A. I don't know. I don't think so, no.
Q. Do you remember when you went back down the steps before you went out the door, did you take anything down them steps with you?
A. I don't know.
Q. George, I can't understand you. You remember so much, so many of the little details as I'm askin' you questions. You remember about the big bust she had, and about her waist and about this --
A. I'm rememberin' it 'cause you got the evidence. I don't --
Q. I showed you --
A. -- remember nothin'.
Q. You mentioned the knife. You mentioned the knife. You said a knife in the kitchen.
A. Yeah, but you got the evidence and the fingerprints, you know. Before we started talkin' I said, no, I don't remember.
Q. But now you do. Do you remember now?
A. Yeah, I remember.
DETECTIVE SCAGGS: I sure hope so.
MR. ALLEN: But the part about stabbin' her.
Q. I don't remember -- you remember everything but that?
A. I might have stabbed her, but I don't remember how many times or how I did it. And that's it. I might have stabbed her. I -- I -- if we was rappin' and she had a knife, I stabbed her. I'll say I stabbed her, but I don't remember how many times.
Q. You don't remember if -- if you left the knife there or if it was taken out of taken someplace else in the house before you left? You remember that?
A. I left everything there.
Q. But you remember where?
A. Everything was on the floor, you know. I didn't pick up nothin'.
Q. Do you remember if she was bleeding when you left?
A. I don't know. I didn't even look back.
Q. You remember stabbin' her?
A. I'll say I remember -- I remember stabbin' her but I don't remember -- I'm not -- I'm not gonna say I counted the times but I did --
Q. Was it many times, do you think?
A. (No response)
Q. George. George, look at me. Was it many times? How comes you can't -- you keep lookin' down?
A. Can't remember 'cause it durin' a fight. If I take a weapon from somebody and I stab 'em I'm not gonna be countin' the times that I stab 'em.
Q. Okay. Did you --
A. 'Cause if I did it would a hadda been a lotta times.
Q. Okay. Did you also cut her throat?
A. And if I was fightin' her with a knife I wouldn't a stopped and lookin' what -- what I was cuttin' either.
Q. George. After you had sex with this woman, did you kill this woman?
A. I don't remember killin' her, I really don't.
Q. Do you remember cuttin' her up?
A. I remember fightin' with her. Now, I might have picked up a towel to wipe the blood off, but that's about it.
Q. To wipe the blood off of what?
A. Off of me.
DETECTIVE SCAGGS: Do you recall what the color of the towel was? Do you remember?
A. (No response)
SERGEANT RILEY: I'm gonna show you a picture of a woman, okay? You lookin' at that picture? Go ahead, pick it up and look at it. Hold it up good'n close to you. Is this what you're talkin' about? George? Is that the woman you had sex with? Look at me, George. George.
A. I guess so.
Q. What you mean you guess so?
A. I'm just settin' here thinkin' about it an I --
Q. Think about there's another picture. It should be noted for the purpose of this cassette tape that, ah, George Allen, Jr., is looking at two photographs of the victim. It should also be noticed -- noted that Detective Scaggs is also present in the interview room at this time.
Here's another picture. Will this help your memory? Is that the woman you're talkin' about? George?
A. Yeah, that's her.
Q. You see the way she's stabbed there? In 'em pictures?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. Did you stab her like that?
A. Yeah, I guess I did.
Q. Is that the woman? George?
A. Yeah, that's her.
Q. Look at me. Look at me, George. Look at me. George, look at me. Did you kill this woman? Look at me, George. Quit lookin' down at the table, look at me. And tell me, did you kill this woman?
A. Yeah, I did.
Q. Tell me why?
A. I don't know why. I don't know.
Q. You're positive this is the woman you killed?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. Had you ever done anything like this before?
A. No.
Q. Have you ever forced yourself into someone's apartment and raped 'em and cut 'em?
A. No.
Q. Did you kill that lady?
A. (No response)
Q. George?
A. I guess I did.
Q. George. Don't guess, did you --
A. I said I did.
Q. -- or did you not kill this lady? The picture you're lookin at, did you kill her, yes or no?
A. I said, yeah.
SERGEANT RILEY: I don't think I have any more questions. Officer, do you have any?
OFFICER JAMES: No. You?
SERGEANT RILEY: Ron?
DETECTIVE SCAGGS: What-- can you remember anything else about bein' in there?
A. No, I don't remember.
DETECTIVE SCAGGS: Anything other than -- that -- can you remember the color of the walls, can you remember the color of the drapes, can you remember the color of the carpet, anything?
A. No, I don't remember.
SERGEANT RILEY: The statement that you've just made to us, you made this statement of your own free will, is that right?
A. Yeah, I made it on my own.
SERGEANT RILEY: You agreed to make this statement, is that right?
A. Uh-huh.
SERGEANT RILEY: I didn't promise you anything? No one else promised you anything?
A. No, didn't promise me nothin'.
SERGEANT RILEY: Okay, are you under the influence of alcohol right now?
A. Mean right now?
SERGEANT RILEY: Yeah.
A. I had one drink.
SERGEANT RILEY: Okay. How about narcotics?
A. No.
SERGEANT RILEY: Okay. And you did make this statement of your own free will, that you agreed to make this statement on tape?
A. Yeah, I made it on tape.
SERGEANT RILEY: And you did -- you was fully advised of your constitutional rights, at least three times, is that right?
A. Right.
SERGEANT RILEY: Okay.
DETECTIVE SCAGGS: Have you been threatened or abused?
A. No.
SERGEANT RILEY: Okay. This concludes the statement, and the time is approximately two thirty-eight p.m.
